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Related Harley V Wing information

Got nailed speeding today

d*n33 said: Got nailed today while leading a pack of about 10.. A group of us were heading eastbound on an interstate when on the other side of median 3 state troopers flew by heading west. We all continued riding and apparently a couple of troopers figured they'd jump off at an exit, haul ass, and catch up with us to see what we were doing. Damn.:headshake The trooper who pulled me said I was doing 93 in a 70. He got on the ass of everyone behind me and decided to pull me because I was in front I guess. When I said I didn't think I was going that fast he brought up a failure to appear I had 10 years ago and asked me if he needed to arrest me since it seemed as if I had a hard time making it to court. He wanted me to run, he wanted me to smart off, it was easy to tell. After he wrote me the ticket and got back in his car, I flagged him back out and asked if he had me on his radar. He said yes, but when I asked to see it he said no. Anyone with similar experiences? Should I just get a lawyer? Should I fight it myself? Or should I ask for a prayer for judgement?

vr6 said: Got nailed today while leading a pack of about 10.. A group of us were heading eastbound on an interstate when on the other side of median 3 state troopers flew by heading west. We all continued riding and apparently a couple of troopers figured they'd jump off at an exit, haul ass, and catch up with us to see what we were doing. Damn.:headshake The trooper who pulled me said I was doing 93 in a 70. He got on the ass of everyone behind me and decided to pull me because I was in front I guess. When I said I didn't think I was going that fast he brought up a failure to appear I had 10 years ago and asked me if he needed to arrest me since it seemed as if I had a hard time making it to court. He wanted me to run, he wanted me to smart off, it was easy to tell. After he wrote me the ticket and got back in his car, I flagged him back out and asked if he had me on his radar. He said yes, but when I asked to see it he said no. Anyone with similar experiences? Should I just get a lawyer? Should I fight it myself? Or should I ask for a prayer for judgement? Fight it. In a pack of bikes hard to single you out. he estimated your speed. Had the same incedent a few year ago. I was thrid bike in. Ticket got knocked down to a parking violation $50.00 Your only down fall is you got a prior. Delay the first court date it's your right then fight it. cops don't like going to court either

d*n33 said: Fight it. In a pack of bikes hard to single you out. he estimated your speed. Had the same incedent a few year ago. I was thrid bike in. Ticket got knocked down to a parking violation $50.00 Your only down fall is you got a prior. Delay the first court date it's your right then fight it. cops don't like going to court either Yeah, think I probably will fight it. Even if he did get me on his radar, I have read its not very accurate while an officers car is in motion. Think he just singled me out because I was out front. And if he was to pinpoint my speed using the pacing method he would have had to follow me at a steady pace. Not while accelerating to catch up. Another patrol car stopped by for a second and the trooper that got me asked him if he got any of the others on radar and the officer said no and proceeded to pursue my friends. They had already stopped at the next exit though. Oh well... there are a lot of cool cops out there but this was not one of them.

h*llsrazor said: I got pulled over this evening by a State Trooper for triple digits. (144) No shit. But once he ran me and found I had no wants or warrants, he asked me if I knew how fast I was going. I said no, wasn't looking at the speedo, but fast. Then he starts talking to me about bikes and tells me he is a rider but had sold his busa and wants another one. And ask me if I knew someone with a busa for sale. I said, yeah, as a matter of fact I do. So I called the guy on the spot and hand my phone to him. So now he is interested in this busa, and bullshits with me and let's me go with a hand shake and a thank you. Guys, I have never ever had this happen to me EVER. I shit you not. I was freakin bugging. Thought I was jail bound for sure. Signed. 1 lucky sum bitch

DP3 said: There is no law in any state that states a cop has to show you the radar if you ask him to. 99% of the time the cop will say no and proceed to give you a ticket. The other 1% of the time he does show you the radar, he is probably having a good day and feels like being nice. If anyone feels like this is untrue and wants to prove it, please post it from your state laws. As for you fighting it, you always have a chance of the cop not showing. That may be the only way you will get off because cops have the "authority" to "estimate" speeds and ticket accordingly. You may just come out cheaper paying the ticket. It will save you lawyer fees and court costs. But it is all up to you.... Good luck either way.

Q*ick10 said: In your situation I would go ahead and get a lawyer...

R*cejunkie05 said: Got nailed today while leading a pack of about 10.. A group of us were heading eastbound on an interstate when on the other side of median 3 state troopers flew by heading west. We all continued riding and apparently a couple of troopers figured they'd jump off at an exit, haul ass, and catch up with us to see what we were doing. Damn.:headshake The trooper who pulled me said I was doing 93 in a 70. He got on the ass of everyone behind me and decided to pull me because I was in front I guess. When I said I didn't think I was going that fast he brought up a failure to appear I had 10 years ago and asked me if he needed to arrest me since it seemed as if I had a hard time making it to court. He wanted me to run, he wanted me to smart off, it was easy to tell. After he wrote me the ticket and got back in his car, I flagged him back out and asked if he had me on his radar. He said yes, but when I asked to see it he said no. Anyone with similar experiences? Should I just get a lawyer? Should I fight it myself? Or should I ask for a prayer for judgement? fight it and tell him the cop refused to show you proof. maybe they will drop the case

p*pabrad said: Just fight it for the sake of fighting. A prior offense that old (Why is that even still on your record) wont pull much of a effect. Don't know how tough the cops are around your area but most of the time that I've noticed with my friends tickets and my one (In my car) they will usually lower it. Lawyer I wouldn't bother getting but up to you just talk with the cop when you go in for the court day. When I got pulled over for 20 over I went into court and talked with the cop prior to seeing the judge and they lowered it to a 5 over limited access (No points!).

S*Ricey said: ALWWWWWWWWWWWAYS fight it....worse casse scenario...youll have to pay the ticket LOL but ALOT of police now arent getting paid Overtime or anything for COURT so alot of them will be no shows...No show from cop = ticket dropped

cr*ig_sez said: If you can,look for errors of any sort on the ticket as in name spelling lic # or where you were caught color,bike or you..lol..Ya gets ma drift..Play every damn card ya can bud..hope you win..

c*pperelite said: ill tell you from my experience i fought ticket ended up costing me 350.00. rather than the 60.00 it would have been otherwise. cop showed and i guess the judge wanted to teach me a lesson...

d*n33 said: going to bite the bullet and hire a lawyer. Im thinking whatever the cost is will be better than 3 years of hiked up insurance premiums. And I know judges are supposed to be fair but when its basically a LEO's word versus and average guys I can only see it go one way if I represented myself. Appreciate all of the suggestions. Next time I'll run........:lol: nahh..

P*undz9oh9 said: FYI, for you and your selected lawyer. If he (the cop) says he caught you in passing with a radar he's definitely full of it. He might have seen a 93 on his radar, but with you being on a motorcycle in the presence of 9 others, the only way he could have singled you out is with a laser. And to use those you have to be stationary ... Food for thought .. Oh, and I'll check with my traffic guys just to make sure tomorrow.

d*n33 said: FYI, for you and your selected lawyer. If he (the cop) says he caught you in passing with a radar he's definitely full of it. He might have seen a 93 on his radar, but with you being on a motorcycle in the presence of 9 others, the only way he could have singled you out is with a laser. And to use those you have to be stationary ... Food for thought .. Oh, and I'll check with my traffic guys just to make sure tomorrow. He never really told me how he got me. He was very vague and when I questioned how he threatened to take me to jail. He either got me passing from the other side or from behind. Are either possible? Thanks for the insight.

YB L*gal said: Yeah, think I probably will fight it. Even if he did get me on his radar, I have read its not very accurate while an officers car is in motion. Think he just singled me out because I was out front. And if he was to pinpoint my speed using the pacing method he would have had to follow me at a steady pace. Not while accelerating to catch up. Another patrol car stopped by for a second and the trooper that got me asked him if he got any of the others on radar and the officer said no and proceeded to pursue my friends. They had already stopped at the next exit though. Oh well... there are a lot of cool cops out there but this was not one of them. he is not required by law to show you the speed reading. and yes they are accurate while moving. they have been proven to be so accurate there is case laws to allow the use of radar to use for speed enforcement. (thats how they are allowed to be used in the first place) you cant ask for a PJC without representation form a lawyer, thats not how it works. you can go to court and ask for a reduction, or represent yourself. best advice get a lawyer pay him a few hundred dollars and let him handle it.

YB L*gal said: He never really told me how he got me. He was very vague and when I questioned how he threatened to take me to jail. He either got me passing from the other side or from behind. Are either possible? Thanks for the insight. he could have taken you to jail with the speed alone, that constitues careless and wreckless which is a misd, (arrestable chrge). if he only wrote you for the speed then be thankful. that will be easier for you to get a lower charge in court, and save you some fines as well. also more than likely he will not be there on that court date, speedign and other moving violatiosn are typically written on an admin date (meaning the DA handles most of his cases for him), then if you ask for a continuance it will be put on the officers regular court date, and he will be at that one. fyi, if there were 3 and one was in the medean, one may be running laser, and sending the other to stop the speeding vehicles. this would explain you being singled out in the group. noit saying this is what happened, only an explination of another possibility. oh, and dont run that makes it a felony. just take your ticket and go home...

*TDR said: he is not required by law to show you the speed reading. and yes they are accurate while moving. they have been proven to be so accurate there is case laws to allow the use of radar to use for speed enforcement. (thats how they are allowed to be used in the first place) you cant ask for a PJC without representation form a lawyer, thats not how it works. you can go to court and ask for a reduction, or represent yourself. best advice get a lawyer pay him a few hundred dollars and let him handle it. What case laws are you refering to, specifficaly for "moving" radar? Thanx in advance!

P*undz9oh9 said: Radars are definitely acurrate .. However, when traveling in a pack of motorcycles there's no chance that he can single one out. Radars are also subjective to outside moisture conditions, calibration schedules and the vehicles climate control. Lidar/Lasers work entirely differently and are more accurate at singling out specific vehicles in traffic, but to get that accuracy there's a trade off .. You have to be sitting still to look through the "sites" while pointing it at the target vehicle ... I recommend ALL traffic lawyers to familiarize themselves with the way these systems work, it'll make their jobs a lot easier especially in a case like this one

P*undz9oh9 said: Side note, he didn't get you from behind either unless he paced the pack, which is also going to be hard for him to explain in court if it goes that far. Did anybody else get tickets?

R*cejunkie05 said: I Fu***** hate dickbag cops like that. He probably has a small dick and was trying to use his authority too feel better about himself. No offense to anyone that's a cop on here. but I feel it's uncalled for when a cop harasses you, when your being cooperative, for no reason.

YB L*gal said: sate vs dantanio (new jersey)- judicial notice of the accuracy of radar (doppler principle) everight vs city of little rock- operators responsibility to make sure the equipment is working properly. dont get this confused with knowing the internals... royals vs commonwealth- require yearly certification (of equipment) state vs tomanelli- use of tuning forks as an accurate testing device honeycutt vs commonwealth- the operator know the "basic operating procedures" this is the qualification to use radar and understand it. certifiaction to run it, not know the scientifics of every aspect. and most important to him, NC G.S 8-50.2 radar reliabilty act :occasion1

d*n33 said: Side note, he didn't get you from behind either unless he paced the pack, which is also going to be hard for him to explain in court if it goes that far. Did anybody else get tickets? My best guess is he clocked me from the other side of the interstate, while moving westbound as I was traveling east. I was about 4-5 bike lengths ahead according to my buddy right behind me on his Honda. All 3 troopers did the same. It didnt appear as though there was a speed trap. YB LEGAL, good info. Thanks, guessing you have some experience with this. And no Pound 9oh9.. I was the only one. Another trooper checked on the one who pulled me and went after my friends but they had already got off the next exit to wait for me.

YB L*gal said: I Fu***** hate dickbag cops like that. He probably has a small dick and was trying to use his authority too feel better about himself. No offense to anyone that's a cop on here. but I feel it's uncalled for when a cop harasses you, when your being cooperative, for no reason. i know me too! that d!ck head cop could have arrested him towed his bike, had it impunded, and taken his license for going that fast in north carolina! but instead he gave him a ticket and a verbal thrashing and sent him on his way...what a d!ck...btw, no offense taken. :occasion1

d*n33 said: The thing that gets me is how motivated this guy was to pull bikers. He had to go probably 3-5 miles in the opposite direction to exit and then jump back on to haul ass to catch up with us. He didn't pace. He hauled ass. None of us really saw him coming. My best guess though after replaying it over and over is that he did get me on his radar when he was traveling the opposite direction on the other side of the median.

YB L*gal said: My best guess is he clocked me from the other side of the interstate, while moving westbound as I was traveling east. I was about 4-5 bike lengths ahead according to my buddy right behind me on his Honda. All 3 troopers did the same. It didnt appear as though there was a speed trap. YB LEGAL, good info. Thanks, guessing you have some experience with this. And no Pound 9oh9.. I was the only one. Another trooper checked on the one who pulled me and went after my friends but they had already got off the next exit to wait for me. not taking sides or defending his actions. and not knowing the exact circumsatnces. i WILL say this...it is hard to get a good reading on a mc period, until it gets really close, or it is the only thing on the road. its such a small target it gives off an extremly small signature on a radar. but i will also tell you this, the radar is only a tool to verify the officers own estimation of a vehicles speed. they go to a 40 hour class on radar, and are required to not only know how to operate it, they have to visually do 12 speed estimates which cannot be off more than 3 miles per hour overall, or they fail. so in laymans terms, you have to be able to visually estimate a vehicles speed with in 3 miles per hour, 12 times in a row (using differnet modes staionary and moving, front and rear), or you fail. the radar verifies the estimate and thats what is written on the ticket. and the weather etc, plays very minimal effect on how well it works....

YB L*gal said: The thing that gets me is how motivated this guy was to pull bikers. He had to go probably 3-5 miles in the opposite direction to exit and then jump back on to haul ass to catch up with us. He didn't pace. He hauled ass. None of us really saw him coming. My best guess though after replaying it over and over is that he did get me on his radar when he was traveling the opposite direction on the other side of the median. man, its their job. thats all they do is write tickets and work wrecks. its that simple. be thankful he did'nt add the C&R charge on top of the speeding, or tow your sh!t and impound it.

P*undz9oh9 said: Fight it ... Case laws are great if the procedures for using these devices are followed .. to a T! That being said ... see my prior post about how subjective the doppler style radars are to outside interference. Any decent lawyer can get this thrown out or downgraded ... a lot .. just make sure he knows the principals of how these devices work, and knowledge of the cases would be great too to make sure that the proper procedures were used. Here's a fun fact: Speed measuring devices are only supposed to be used for confirmation of what the officer is already supposed to know by judging distance, time and landmarks. They're not supposed to be used as traffic monitoring devices as the officer just drives around with it on ..... (unless something has changed since my last radar cert class) .. Maybe YB can confirm or deny this with some state specific info?

P*undz9oh9 said: Man ... YB beat me to my last point .. lol

P*undz9oh9 said: the weather etc, plays very minimal effect on how well it works.... I agree with everything ... cept this ... trust me, it does effect it ... sometimes more significantly than others, but it does

d*n33 said: I Fu***** hate dickbag cops like that. He probably has a small dick and was trying to use his authority too feel better about himself. No offense to anyone that's a cop on here. but I feel it's uncalled for when a cop harasses you, when your being cooperative, for no reason. Yeah, bike was legal, I stopped immediately, was polite and cooperated. I felt like telling the guy that my bike does 100mph in first gear and that 93 was hardly moving and to go buy one and have a little fun in life, but I kept cool. He road up on everyones back tire like a lunatic. I exaggerate not the slightest. And then to bring up things on my record (very minor) from almost 10 years ago to try and scare me....:dontknow: Thats what makes me feel like he has nothing. And when I said I didn't think I was going that fast he said in a snide tone, "then fight it in court."

YB L*gal said: Fight it ... Case laws are great if the procedures for using these devices are followed .. to a T! That being said ... see my prior post about how subjective the doppler style radars are to outside interference. Any decent lawyer can get this thrown out or downgraded ... a lot .. just make sure he knows the principals of how these devices work, and knowledge of the cases would be great too to make sure that the proper procedures were used. Here's a fun fact: Speed measuring devices are only supposed to be used for confirmation of what the officer is already supposed to know by judging distance, time and landmarks. They're not supposed to be used as traffic monitoring devices as the officer just drives around with it on ..... (unless something has changed since my last radar cert class) .. Maybe YB can confirm or deny this with some state specific info? true, i threw that last part in there. but on a side note, you are proly not going to beat a speeding ticket here. best case get the lawyer and let him ask for a PJC or better reduce it to improper equipment. thats only an infraction and in no way affects your insurance. if you are really wanting to do it yourself, i can give you some other options but no guarantee they will get it completly dismissed.

YB L*gal said: I agree with everything ... cept this ... trust me, it does effect it ... sometimes more significantly than others, but it does i know, i went to the same 40 hour school they do, and the same re-cert class as well. :wink:

d*n33 said: The bottom line is there are many cool cops that I have met down here in NC. This was not one of them. Dude was intimidating too I admit and it takes a lot to intimidate me. Maybe it was the gun and threat of jail?:dontknow: Very loud, threatening, like he had a personal vendetta against me. Thing is if he was cool, I wouldn't question his motive and integrity like I do. everyone knows someone with a bike and knows that 90 in a 70 is far from murder 1. They need to put that dude on some antidepressants, give him a vacation, and a starring role interrogating in a TV drama:crackup:

YB L*gal said: The bottom line is there are many cool cops that I have met down here in NC. This was not one of them. Dude was intimidating too I admit and it takes a lot to intimidate me. Maybe it was the gun and threat of jail?:dontknow: Very loud, threatening, like he had a personal vendetta against me. Thing is if he was cool, I wouldn't question his motive and integrity like I do. everyone knows someone with a bike and knows that 90 in a 70 is far from murder 1. They need to put that dude on some antidepressants, give him a vacation, and a starring role interrogating in a TV drama:crackup: those troopers are different breed, they get saturated in that kool-aide in trooper school and it takes awhile for reality to sink back in. mind asking where you were?

d*rt ninja said: i know, i went to the same 40 hour school they do, and the same re-cert class as well. :wink: Man i dont see how you guys can possibly always determine a vehicles speed withing 3mph when your moving in the opposite direction. So many different variables between the size and color of vehicles including the back ground to throw your estimation off. You officers are only human and are not programmed machines.:mrgreen: btw i think you've been pretty dam cool about helping out us forum members with all the radar and lidar info from the past and present!:occasion1

P*undz9oh9 said: i know, i went to the same 40 hour school they do, and the same re-cert class as well. :wink: Good man .. :mrgreen: OP, you NEVER know his reasoning for why he acted the way he did ... can you imagine your mood if you were just returning from a call where a child was thrown in a microwave for crying too loudly? Or better yet, maybe they screwed up his order at the local take out place .... I know that would piss ME off ... lol Just sayin ... don't let your emotions get involved in it .. just get your FACTS straight and make a sound decision on what you're going to do based on the facts and not what you THINK may have happened..

P*undz9oh9 said: Man i dont see how you guys can possibly always determine a vehicles speed withing 3mph when your moving in the opposite direction. So many different variables between the size and color of vehicles including the back ground to throw your estimation off. You officers are only human and are not programmed machines.:mrgreen: btw i think you've been pretty dam cool about helping out us forum members with all the radar and lidar info from the past and present!:occasion1 It's really not that hard once you learn it. Your eyes are not as subjective as you may think to the distractors that you mentioned

d*n33 said: true, i threw that last part in there. but on a side note, you are proly not going to beat a speeding ticket here. best case get the lawyer and let him ask for a PJC or better reduce it to improper equipment. thats only an infraction and in no way affects your insurance. if you are really wanting to do it yourself, i can give you some other options but no guarantee they will get it completly dismissed. Nah, think I'll get a lawer and play it safe. Ive tried hard to get my license clean I'm just bummed, its like here we go again damn. Wasn't out to hurt anyone, just having fun on a nice day. And I'm not convinced the officer was honest. And that bothers me. Kettle, black..... Know what I mean.

P*undz9oh9 said: those troopers are different breed, they get saturated in that kool-aide in trooper school and it takes awhile for reality to sink back in. mind asking where you were? Kinda like Marines ... lol ... only they never slip back to reality .. :crackup:

YB L*gal said: Man i dont see how you guys can possibly always determine a vehicles speed withing 3mph when your moving in the opposite direction. So many different variables between the size and color of vehicles including the back ground to throw your estimation off. You officers are only human and are not programmed machines.:mrgreen: btw i think you've been pretty dam cool about helping out us forum members with all the radar and lidar info from the past and present!:occasion1 thanks man! look at it this way, "prima facia" - (latin meaning at first sight). second term for th eday, "lay witnesss"- basically a lay witness is joe citizen. meaning anyone can testify to speed! you do it all the time, you have to estiamte a vehicles speed when turning, passing or pulling out of a parking lot, right? its the same thing. ok back to my first term, at first sight. you are going down the road and see a car coming at you, you look and say _sh1t that dude is flying! so then you take a few seconds to start lookin g athe surroundings, other traffic etc, you verify how fast you are going by looking at your speedo, this gives you an didea of how fast you are going in your surroundings, this allows you to start your "visual estimate" of the other vehicles speed. try it yourself, you would be suprised. only kicker is we have a computer that emits a radar wave and a computer box that calculates the wave bouncing back and gives us the speed of the other vehicle. how many time syuo been on th ehighway cruising an danother car flys by/ you say, mna i bet that guy was doing like 90mph? same sh!t....

YB L*gal said: Kinda like Marines ... lol ... only they never slip back to reality .. :crackup: :spit: true, true....

*TDR said: sate vs dantanio (new jersey)- judicial notice of the accuracy of radar (doppler principle) everight vs city of little rock- operators responsibility to make sure the equipment is working properly. dont get this confused with knowing the internals... royals vs commonwealth- require yearly certification (of equipment) state vs tomanelli- use of tuning forks as an accurate testing device honeycutt vs commonwealth- the operator know the "basic operating procedures" this is the qualification to use radar and understand it. certifiaction to run it, not know the scientifics of every aspect. and most important to him, NC G.S 8-50.2 radar reliabilty act :occasion1 OK so your saying all those case laws prove that "moving radar" is accurate and therefore there is "judicial notice" of moving radar? Im not interested in case laws that say tuning forks are accurate, or doppler principle is accurate, or yearly certifications are required, or the operators is responsible for being certified, I agree to all that. No argument there. That would all apply to STATIONARY radar, no doubt. Show me some case laws that specifically state there is "judicial notice" to the accuracy of MOVING radar in ANY of the 50 states. Thats what I want to see a case law that states. The case law MUST state MOVING radar is accurate. Thanx in advance.

d*n33 said: those troopers are different breed, they get saturated in that kool-aide in trooper school and it takes awhile for reality to sink back in. mind asking where you were? Man you seem like one of the cool ones but as minor as this is I'm almost admitting guilt when I'm not completely sure I was speeding at the given time. Its like he was trying to make something out of nothing on the chance I was speeding at some other point in the day. But if my memory serves me right I live in the same area you do. Why do you ask?

*TDR said: Judicial Notice = Basically you don't have to re-prove in court what is already a proven fact. Such as Ice is cold, fire will burn you, water is wet, ect. I want to see a case law from any of the 50 states that states MOVING radar has judicial notice as being accurate. The case law must state MOVING radar, not just plain ole radar as stationary (non moving) radar certainly as a fact has judicial notice in all 50 states as being accurate and reliable. I want to see a case law from any of the 50 states proving judicial notice to MOVING radar as accurate and reliable. Lets see it.

Br*ndon said: I got stopped for 20mph over the limit the other night. "do u know you were doing 20mph over the limit?" yes sir. "do u know it could be 5 points on your license?" yes sir "let me run your license" yes sir "is this your 1st bike or are u new @ this?" lol, no sir. "who gave you the NY state police card" a friend sir, his name is xxxxx xxxxxxxx. "do you have any other friends in law enforcement?" yes sir, i know your boss and @ least 5 of your coworkers. "well maybe i wont have to write you for the speed then" thank u sir. "here is your license and reg, get out of here. btw, nice bike." thank u sir... off i went.

YB L*gal said: "In north carolina, evidence of speed derived mechanical instruments is made admissible by the granting of judicial notice by Statute. Specifically, North Carolina has granted judicial notice of the rules approving the use of speed measurement equipment and the procedures for operation and calibrating theses instruments (see G.S, 8-50.2)." the preceeding was taken directly form the basic radar operators course handbook. if you want to see case law on moving radar, try this: state vs hanson (wisconsin), or sameul knight vs state of ny. i work in NC, therefore by statute the courts recognize the reliabilty of radar, therefore as long i i meet the state requirements i can operate the radar which i am certified to use. please refer to the OP, where i stated that the GS which would apply specifically to his situation. basically the courts recognize the reliabiltiy of radar period, the moving or stationary has little to no effect on the reading other than location specifics. the counter box does the calculations based on the desired setting from which you are operating the radar unit. ie- front staionary/moving, rear staionary/moving, or even same lane front/rear. thats where it falls on the operator to have working knowledge of the unit being used and its operating features.

YB L*gal said: Judicial Notice = Basically you don't have to re-prove in court what is already a proven fact. Such as Ice is cold, fire will burn you, water is wet, ect. I want to see a case law from any of the 50 states that states MOVING radar has judicial notice as being accurate. The case law must state MOVING radar, not just plain ole radar as stationary (non moving) radar certainly as a fact has judicial notice in all 50 states as being accurate and reliable. I want to see a case law from any of the 50 states proving judicial notice to MOVING radar as accurate and reliable. Lets see it. :heyyou:

P*undz9oh9 said: I think you are clearly putting too much effort into this thread YB ... Lol ... I say, let the spooners look up their own info if they want specifics .. Lo

W*oki said: So Den, how fast were you actually going? Was he right that you were doing 93, or are you claiming you were at a lower speed and he was wrong?

P*undz9oh9 said: OP, please PM that info, rather than post it in the thread .. lol ..

d*n33 said: So Den, how fast were you actually going? Was he right that you were doing 93, or are you claiming you were at a lower speed and he was wrong? Based on my odometer being off about 5mph and based on what my friends thought, no, I was not going that fast. My speedometer would have had to read 98mph for me to have been moving along at 93mph. And after critically thinking about this, I was riding at a lower rate of speed.

WLTD said: he could have taken you to jail with the speed alone, that constitues careless and wreckless which is a misd, (arrestable chrge). if he only wrote you for the speed then be thankful. that will be easier for you to get a lower charge in court, and save you some fines as well. also more than likely he will not be there on that court date, speedign and other moving violatiosn are typically written on an admin date (meaning the DA handles most of his cases for him), then if you ask for a continuance it will be put on the officers regular court date, and he will be at that one. fyi, if there were 3 and one was in the medean, one may be running laser, and sending the other to stop the speeding vehicles. this would explain you being singled out in the group. noit saying this is what happened, only an explination of another possibility. oh, and dont run that makes it a felony. just take your ticket and go home... Radars are definitely acurrate .. However, when traveling in a pack of motorcycles there's no chance that he can single one out. Radars are also subjective to outside moisture conditions, calibration schedules and the vehicles climate control. Lidar/Lasers work entirely differently and are more accurate at singling out specific vehicles in traffic, but to get that accuracy there's a trade off .. You have to be sitting still to look through the "sites" while pointing it at the target vehicle ... I recommend ALL traffic lawyers to familiarize themselves with the way these systems work, it'll make their jobs a lot easier especially in a case like this one Side note, he didn't get you from behind either unless he paced the pack, which is also going to be hard for him to explain in court if it goes that far. Did anybody else get tickets? sate vs dantanio (new jersey)- judicial notice of the accuracy of radar (doppler principle) everight vs city of little rock- operators responsibility to make sure the equipment is working properly. dont get this confused with knowing the internals... royals vs commonwealth- require yearly certification (of equipment) state vs tomanelli- use of tuning forks as an accurate testing device honeycutt vs commonwealth- the operator know the "basic operating procedures" this is the qualification to use radar and understand it. certifiaction to run it, not know the scientifics of every aspect. and most important to him, NC G.S 8-50.2 radar reliabilty act :occasion1 These guys seem to know what they are talking about... if it was me i'd send some rep. Just Sayin!

f*rnman said: There is no law in any state that states a cop has to show you the radar if you ask him to. 99% of the time the cop will say no and proceed to give you a ticket. The other 1% of the time he does show you the radar, he is probably having a good day and feels like being nice. If anyone feels like this is untrue and wants to prove it, please post it from your state laws. As for you fighting it, you always have a chance of the cop not showing. That may be the only way you will get off because cops have the "authority" to "estimate" speeds and ticket accordingly. You may just come out cheaper paying the ticket. It will save you lawyer fees and court costs. But it is all up to you.... Good luck either way. Now they will proudly show you the speed on the gun as it helps you incriminate and contradict yourself in court. It would be wiser to ask if the gun is calibrated. Good luck to you all.

YB L*gal said: Now they will proudly show you the speed on the gun as it helps you incriminate and contradict yourself in court. It would be wiser to ask if the gun is calibrated. Good luck to you all. ah yes, but if we show you the speed thats what you get...no chance for a roadside reduction. be careful what you ask for...and the other statement, would you know what you would be looking at if you were to look at a readout on the counter box? or how to interpret the calibration form that goes with the unit? had a smarty smart guy ask me one time when i stopped him, he wanted to see my VASCAR. i politely told him i did not have VASCAR. i then asked him if he would like to see the readout on my radar unit, after he stared at it with quite a dumbfounded look on his face, i then asked if he knew what he was looking at? he did not...i then proceeded to issue his citation for 15+, funny he could read that....im not trying to be a smart a$$ guys, just reminding you that tv and hearsay do not make you an educated person on certain matters. :wink:

f*rnman said: ah yes, but if we show you the speed thats what you get...no chance for a roadside reduction. be careful what you ask for...and the other statement, would you know what you would be looking at if you were to look at a readout on the counter box? or how to interpret the calibration form that goes with the unit? had a smarty smart guy ask me one time when i stopped him, he wanted to see my VASCAR. i politely told him i did not have VASCAR. i then asked him if he would like to see the readout on my radar unit, after he stared at it with quite a dumbfounded look on his face, i then asked if he knew what he was looking at? he did not...i then proceeded to issue his citation for 15+, funny he could read that....im not trying to be a smart a$$ guys, just reminding you that tv and hearsay do not make you an educated person on certain matters. :wink: LOL what! You mean CSI and all those shows aren't real! , my Grandpa always told me there are two things you don't mess with in life the first one is the urge to have to shit, the second is the Police :crackup:

*TDR said: "In north carolina, evidence of speed derived mechanical instruments is made admissible by the granting of judicial notice by Statute. Specifically, North Carolina has granted judicial notice of the rules approving the use of speed measurement equipment and the procedures for operation and calibrating theses instruments (see G.S, 8-50.2)." I see NOTHING in the above about MOVING radar having judicial notice. the preceeding was taken directly form the basic radar operators course handbook. if you want to see case law on moving radar, try this: state vs hanson (wisconsin), or sameul knight vs state of ny. i work in NC, therefore by statute the courts recognize the reliabilty of radar, therefore as long i i meet the state requirements i can operate the radar which i am certified to use. please refer to the OP, where i stated that the GS which would apply specifically to his situation. basically the courts recognize the reliabiltiy of radar period, the moving or stationary has little to no effect on the reading other than location specifics. the counter box does the calculations based on the desired setting from which you are operating the radar unit. ie- front staionary/moving, rear staionary/moving, or even same lane front/rear. thats where it falls on the operator to have working knowledge of the unit being used and its operating features. If you have the names of the case law, then copy and paste the case law itself, where it specifically states MOVING radar has judicial notice. Dont just post the name of a case law, copy and paste the entire case law for everyone to read. And specifically post State vs Hanson and show how Wisconsin case law applies to North Carolina where the OP was cited. If i tried using an out-of-state case law, the judge would laugh me out of the court. POST THE CASE laws, not the header name only. Let see it. Replied too:

*TDR said: I'll save YB further trouble. MOVING radar, legal to use YES, and admissiable in court yes, does NOT have judicial notice in any of the 50 US States, period. What does that mean to the violator, the OP? This is not stationary radar we are discussing in this case, but moving radar and NO Jurisdiction in any of the 50 US States has ever taken Judicial Notice that moving radar is accurate to the legal degree of certainty necessary for a conviction of a speeding offense. The reason such Judicial Notice does not exist with MOVING radar is because scientific evidence as to the accuracy and reliability of moving radar has never been shown to be sufficient as to the accuracy reliability and admissibility of evidence obtained from such a device. So YES, the cops can use MOVING radar, write you a ticket and have it hold up in court. BUT, you can easily challange it, because Judicial notice does NOT exist on MOVING radar like stationary. One simply has to object to the moving radar eveidence. But if you stand there and say nothing, guilty you will be found.

*TDR said: Since YB can only post the names of Case Laws, and not the actual case law in regards to MOVING radar, here is an example from an OHIO court. Read whats in RED. [Cite as State v. Gellenbeck, 2009-Ohio-1731.] IN THE COURT OF APPEALS TWELFTH APPELLATE DISTRICT OF OHIO FAYETTE COUNTY STATE OF OHIO, : Plaintiff-Appellee, : CASE NO. CA2008-08-030 : O P I N I O N - vs - 4/13/2009 : GREGORY P. GELLENBECK, : Defendant-Appellant. : CRIMINAL APPEAL FROM WASHINGTON C.H. MUNICIPAL COURT Case No. TRD0803335 Pitstick Law Office, Mark J. Pitstick, 224 North Fayette Street, Washington C.H., OH 43140, for plaintiff-appellee Gregory P. Gellenbeck, 423 Aspen Ridge, Lebanon, OH 45036-8254, defendantappellant, pro se YOUNG, J. {¶1} Defendant-appellant, Gregory P. Gellenbeck, appeals pro se his conviction in the Washington Court House Municipal Court for speeding. - 7 - {¶22} The admissibility of readings from stationary radars was considered by the Ohio Supreme Court in East Cleveland v. Ferell (1958), 168 Ohio St. 298. The Python radar is a radar mounted in a patrol car and is considered a moving radar. {¶23} There is a difference in the standard of proof required between a stationary radar and a radar mounted in a moving vehicle (moving radar). State v. Wilcox (1974), 40 Ohio App.2d 380. A person may not be convicted of speeding solely from a moving radar in the absence of (1) expert testimony with respect to the construction of the radar and its method of operation with respect to its ability to differentiate the speed of a vehicle approaching the moving patrol car from the opposite direction from the combined speed at which the two vehicles are moving toward eachother; (2) evidence that the radar is in good condition for accurate work; and (3) evidence that the witness using the radar is one qualified for its use by training and experience. Id. at paragraph two of the syllabus.

f*rnman said: Well all that being said, they take classes to estimate the speed you were traveling ( and they are very precise ), that being said fighting the radar would only be the beginning. Lawyer up and work out a deal.

YB L*gal said: ok perry mason. well i guess since i am posting regarding the op situation and considering it IS in NC, and what i have posted regarding what NC recognizes as the lawful use of radar. again case laws are not used to enforce sh!t, laws enforced by generla statutes, which have been challenged by certain case laws. once the courts recognize the legitamacy of said issues, those certain topics are no longer challenged. again i referyou to one of my original postings regarding the GS that pertains to NC. that would also be the state in which i am a certified law enforcement officer, also holding an active radar certification from said state. so i guess evrything that i posted for you to look at, most of which came directly from the operators handbook. the same book i used in teh 40 hour training class i attended and passed, along with the additional 16 hours of training after the class with another certified operator, both of which done successfully prior to obtaining my certification to legally operate the radar unit. not counting the re-cert class i just went to last year, seeing as how i have to do that every three years to remain certified. i apologize for not answering your questions correctly....

*xbudd said: I got pulled over this evening by a State Trooper for triple digits. (144) No shit. But once he ran me and found I had no wants or warrants, he asked me if I knew how fast I was going. I said no, wasn't looking at the speedo, but fast. Then he starts talking to me about bikes and tells me he is a rider but had sold his busa and wants another one. And ask me if I knew someone with a busa for sale. I said, yeah, as a matter of fact I do. So I called the guy on the spot and hand my phone to him. So now he is interested in this busa, and bullshits with me and let's me go with a hand shake and a thank you. Guys, I have never ever had this happen to me EVER. I shit you not. I was freakin bugging. Thought I was jail bound for sure. Signed. 1 lucky sum bitch That's one of the best cop story's i've ever heard lucky you. I once got pulled over too going triple digits and didn't go to jail cop said somebody called in saying stuff was flying out my backpack i was coming back for americade bike rally

YB L*gal said: once again this is why i often ask myself why i even respond to threads like this trying to offer any help....and yes i m well aware of the difference usuing moving radar. thats where the GS comes into play. you must follow the rules to play....there is no need to have a case law for something to be recognized by the courts and be enforced. typically its the other way around, something happens in a case and that changes the way things ARE done. hence the case laws i icluded which led to the recognition of the courts to the accuracy of radar. good thing i have been flying by the seat of my pants all these years....

*xbudd said: To me this ticket thing is all about money i have gotten tickets when i was in the wrong and also when i did nothing it allways comes down to money

f*rnman said: ok perry mason. well i guess since i am posting regarding the op situation and considering it IS in NC, and what i have posted regarding what NC recognizes as the lawful use of radar. again case laws are not used to enforce sh!t, laws enforced by generla statutes, which have been challenged by certain case laws. once the courts recognize the legitamacy of said issues, those certain topics are no longer challenged. again i referyou to one of my original postings regarding the GS that pertains to NC. that would also be the state in which i am a certified law enforcement officer, also holding an active radar certification from said state. so i guess evrything that i posted for you to look at, most of which came directly from the operators handbook. the same book i used in teh 40 hour training class i attended and passed, along with the additional 16 hours of training after the class with another certified operator, both of which done successfully prior to obtaining my certification to legally operate the radar unit. not counting the re-cert class i just went to last year, seeing as how i have to do that every three years to remain certified. i apologize for not answering your questions correctly.... Well no one has said thanks for the information. Thanks I found it very useful.

YB L*gal said: Well no one has said thanks for the information. Thanks I found it very useful. :occasion1

*TDR said: ok perry mason. .... OK, so what this means, is your not going to post any case laws proving any Judicial Notice exists of MOVING radar. Your just going to continue with the mantra that radar is legal to use, which I don't deny.

*TDR said: Well all that being said, they take classes to estimate the speed you were traveling ( and they are very precise ), that being said fighting the radar would only be the beginning. Lawyer up and work out a deal. Correct, first you get the radar evidence tossed, then you get the visual estimate of your speed tossed. There are plenty of case laws that state, "visual estimates" (opinions) of the velocity of motor vehicles is unreliable". Perry Mason! :lol:

*TDR said: ok perry mason. well i guess since i am posting regarding the op situation and considering it IS in NC, and what i have posted regarding what NC recognizes as the lawful use of radar. again case laws are not used to enforce sh!t, laws enforced by generla statutes, which have been challenged by certain case laws. once the courts recognize the legitamacy of said issues, those certain topics are no longer challenged. again i referyou to one of my original postings regarding the GS that pertains to NC. that would also be the state in which i am a certified law enforcement officer, also holding an active radar certification from said state. so i guess evrything that i posted for you to look at, most of which came directly from the operators handbook. the same book i used in teh 40 hour training class i attended and passed, along with the additional 16 hours of training after the class with another certified operator, both of which done successfully prior to obtaining my certification to legally operate the radar unit. not counting the re-cert class i just went to last year, seeing as how i have to do that every three years to remain certified. i apologize for not answering your questions correctly.... YB, with all due respect, I dont recall ever asking for your "resume", I asked for case laws proving judicial notice of MOVING radar, but thanks anyway. Also YB, no need to send me any more PM's letting me know you replied to my post.

YB L*gal said: i dont need case law, you are th one asking for the case laws. the judicial notice i need is what i already posted. (gs 8-50.2) that the colurt recognizes that radar is reliable, the only thing that changes for moving radar is that yoou meet the criteria set forth by the state. ie: you are folowing the correct protocall when operating it. do you need me to list those as well? on a side note, i have not sent you any pm's...sorry if i offended you. i was merely trying to help the OP, and answer your questions. maybe i was mis-reading your responses as if you were questioning me knowing what i was talking about. also as you stated what so other states case laws have to do with what happens in NC? that would be everything. thats what case laws do, they set forth changes that affects every state in the country. not just the state in which they take place.

r*adeth said: wow..... 7 pages for a speeding ticket???? dude, sorry you feel you got treated that way.. if what you said is the actual truth there is no need for it. i play for the dark side and there are many, many members i wouldn't want to spend any time with outside of work... unfortunately there are too many douche bags with badges.. this day and age there are also way to many idiots that make up stories about cops being a certain way. (not saying you are!!!) either way, if you feel you got lied to get a lawyer to make sure he does the checks and balances to make sure everything is legit. at the end of the day though, i think of it like this. those ticket monkeys do have a job to do all be it a shitty one. if you get stopped, be polite, take your ticket or thank him/her for not giving you one. every biker knows if they are speeding or not 99.9% of the time. i always tell people that feel they get treated bad by cops..(seems to be the same people over and over), have some type of recording device on you.. keeps us honest and if we are treating you the way we should it should be a nil issue... don't feel too bad about the state troopers.. lol.. they have a reputation even up here in canada.. a buddy of mine here got a ticket going through florida from a statetrooper. i'm sure if they could they'd ticket their own mothers.

*TDR said: i dont need case law, you are th one asking for the case laws. the judicial notice i need is what i already posted. (gs 8-50.2) that the colurt recognizes that radar is reliable, the only thing that changes for moving radar is that yoou meet the criteria set forth by the state. ie: you are folowing the correct protocall when operating it. do you need me to list those as well? on a side note, i have not sent you any pm's...sorry if i offended you. i was merely trying to help the OP, and answer your questions. maybe i was mis-reading your responses as if you were questioning me knowing what i was talking about. also as you stated what so other states case laws have to do with what happens in NC? that would be everything. thats what case laws do, they set forth changes that affects every state in the country. not just the state in which they take place. OK, not a PM, but you did send me some kind of a NOTIFICATION that you replied to my post and was expecting a reply, like you were in a hurry or something. You did not offend me, like all good lawyers, I never ask a question I dont already know the answer too. I knew there were no case laws supporting MOVING radar and thus knew you could not post any, which you never could. Im done. I thank you YB for doing a thankless job. Dangerous and underpaid. Carry on, Im done. :occasion1

YB L*gal said: OK, not a PM, but you did send me some kind of a NOTIFICATION that you replied to my post and was expecting a reply, like you were in a hurry or something. You did not offend me, like all good lawyers, I never ask a question I dont already know the answer too. I knew there were no case laws supporting MOVING radar and thus knew you could not post any, which you never could. Im done. I thank you YB for doing a thankless job. Dangerous and underpaid. Carry on, Im done. :occasion1 actually the ones i posted do. they are supporting the facts that allows it to be used in the first place. and i actually liked you better before you admitted to being a lawyer.:badteeth: :occasion1

YB L*gal said: and to the OP, sorry for the slight threadjack. good luck in court.

M*ddevill said: A buddy and I were riding on a 2 lane highway and a CHP supposedly radared us from his car coming the opposite way. He wrote us both a speeding ticket. I wrote to the court asking how he could write 2 vehicles when he got a radar return for 1 only. Judge agreed, dismissed! Excelllent!:thumbsup:

S*lo-Six said: Fight it. In a pack of bikes hard to single you out. he estimated your speed. Had the same incedent a few year ago. I was thrid bike in. Ticket got knocked down to a parking violation $50.00 Your only down fall is you got a prior. Delay the first court date it's your right then fight it. cops don't like going to court either Me too... Fight it .. He has no visible way to get just you ... The surface area for radar is not big enough head on ... nor from the rear at a large distance .. He also has too many other moving objects to PROVE WITHOUT A DOUBT it was your bike that tripped the speed ... My friend tab had this happen to him in walla walla wa and we were 7 deep and doing 75 in a 60. He won cause the cop didnt have radar print out, wouldnt show tab when he asked to see it and furthermore they had to pull over the entire pack if that was the case not just one bike..

sh*jivic said: Holy moley... I couldn't find the energy to read all the posts regarding the back and forth with case law, etc.. ! Bottom line is: use of radar/moving radar etc merely confirms an officer's observation based on training and experience. All of the officer's supporting evidence (visual estimation, audible radar signal commensurate to speed readout,etc) is merely a series of steps that are then double-checked by the radar's indication. Stationary radar and moving radar operate via the same principles, although moving radar involves the device obtaining the officer's vehicle speed as well as the target vehicle's speed. Radar is radar; a signal sent out and received and a calculation of the difference in distance traveled in a set span of time. For the purposes of this OP, does it really require case histories and judicial notice to allow the judge to render a decision on a simple speeding ticket? I've stood before very liberal and uninvolved traffic court judges whose decisions seemed very inconsistent and arbitrary, and I've argued in front of judges who were very meticulous and allowed me to rebutt all the quasi-scientific legal objections given by the defendants. It's all up to the judge, and you can't ever be fully sure what to expect witht them... They're only human too... Bottom line, I don't know how to advise you regarding legal advice and lawyers as the ramifications may be very different between CA and NC. In CA, 23mph over the limit doesn't constitute much of a difference when compared to any other speeding ticket. You would be receiving only a single point on your license here... Not much to it. And, an officer's argument that he pulled you over as you were leading, doesn't seem unreasonable. His observations that he may/may not have disclosed to you may include more than use of radar... He merely needs only to show you prior to trial, what he plans to introduce in court, be it vehicle speedo calibration, radar calibration, his record of visual estimation rate-of-error, etc... Fight it? Sure.. you've got nothing to lose. But determine what the consequences are BEFORE you commit yourself to not having the opportunity to erase the violation via traffic school... good luck.. more importantly, stay safe out there!

WLTD said: Lots of good advice in the 5th paragraph.

b*gherm2121 said: Ya this one day when me and two other buddies were riding. The one did a little wheelie and then we saw lights. Cop gets out and talks to us. He said I'm going to give you a warning because you stopped and didn't lie to me lol. He said most bikes run from him. He could of slammed a reckless driving on my boy and would of been a loss licensehere in PA. Lucky I said. Some cops can be super cool and some can be complete dicks.

ss14dh88 said: Holy shit this thread brought out some teeth . I have no love for police in general . It's their job to catch u break in the law it's ur job to get away with it or beat it . I got gaffes doin a buck twenty the cop asked if I knew my speed I said ya , then asked if I knew how long he was behind me . I told him no wasn't worried what was behind because I was watching sides and front cause those were what could kill me not what was behind me goin slower . He was a chip on bike he was cool I was cool he let me off with a verble and said go home for the day . Come on people we all are on here cause we love our bikes relax a little :occasion1